Tag Archives: sludge

Difficult chunks: an interview with The Great Sabatini

The Great Sabatini have been making great, weird, jagged-edged sludge for over ten years now. Their new album, ‘Goodbye Audio’ (out on vinyl via No List, Ancient Temple and No Why, and on cassette courtesy of Pink Lemonade) is an absolute beast, and you should really tuck into it if you haven’t already.

Singer/guitarist Sean Sabatini took the time to answer these questions by email, wherein we touch upon the new album (obviously), mutant toys and the perilously fine line of injecting a sense of ‘fun’ into a band’s music.

You must have told this tale a thousand times, so let’s start with the elevator pitch version: tell us how, when and why The Great Sabatini came to be.

We got together in Montreal in 2007 to start jamming and made an EP. After our first tour across Canada, our initial drummer Will left to travel and we connected with our old friend Steve, whose band, Tugnut, had just dissolved. He joined the band full time shortly thereafter and has been with us for ten years now.

The new album is ace! Tell us about it: what went into it and made it the way it is?

Thanks. We wrote it mostly apart from one another, which was a lengthy process, and decided to record most of it live off the floor in an effort to sort of bring the songs and performances to the most honest place possible. The last song, which was designed to be a sort of huge experiment, was recorded one piece at a time and meticulously mapped out.

Are there any underlying themes or ideas running through the album?

Well, the major theme of this record is mortality. Each song is different but they all are concerned with some aspect of the inevitability of death. It’s a sort of Memento Mori kind of thing.

Was there anything you wanted to build on following ‘Dog Years’, or, alternatively, anything you wanted to draw a veil over and start afresh with?

I think there was a very focused effort to halt our inclination to complicate our music. We like to challenge ourselves and push our musical abilities in the tunes, and ‘Dog Years’ has some pretty difficult (for us) chunks in there. So the bigger challenge this time was making the arrangements simpler, so that tracking them live would be easier, and also allow us room to perform them with more power or restraint, where necessary.

I love how your records are so varied: there’s the rugged, gnarly, sludgy skeleton, but all this other stuff is occurring along the way (the weird spidery melodies; the strings…). How do you decide to bring these factors in, and how do you know what’s going to work for a Great Sabatini song?

I think we all have musical ideas and tricks in mind whenever writing is happening. Whenever I have a specific idea for something to employ as a musical device in a tune, the guys will respond with further ideas and reactionary things, so that sorta makes for a variety of sounds and arrangements in our songs. If something isn’t going to work as a Sabatini song, it’ll die out pretty fast. But any idea is worth investigating. Sometimes an idea gets shelved for years but finds its way back. The back end of ‘Tax Season In Dreamland’ is one of those bits. That part is well over ten years old.

Tell us a bit about ‘The Hand Of Unmaking’ – that one’s pretty darn special.

Jeez, thanks, man. We had the idea to write something huge. It started with reading Michael Herr’s book ‘Dispatches’. I wanted to convey a feeling of fragility in the shadow of monolithic human violence. I didn’t think we could do that in the sort of song that we’d ever be able to perform live. So once we decided to compose something which was free from the restraint of the band as a four-piece band, the options just blew wide open. We threw a lot of stuff into that one. It was a huge undertaking for us, but it was a fun and interesting process, overdubbing one piece at a time and seeing it come together.

You’ve been a band for over ten years, released a stack of records and toured your asses off. How do you keep things fresh, and how do you prevent yourselves from burning out?

Well, the circumstances for us even being a band at this point are quite different, each of our lives are in different places than they were even five years ago. So working together has required some retooling just to make it happen at all. We’re adapting, simply because we love to make music together and we each find it rewarding in some way. It’s worth the effort to figure out how to work around geography and weird schedules.

‘You’re Gonna Die (Unsatisfied)’ alludes to this adherence to craft and the fact that holding yourself to an impossibly high standard pretty much dooms you to failure. How do you reconcile this as a band/musician? At what point did you make your peace with the fact?

I feel like it’s a seesaw. One minute you resign yourself to the fact that perfection or satisfaction will elude you, and then you wake up and start chasing it harder than you ever did before. It’s a perspective thing I suppose. Sometimes it’s ok to be at peace with that knowledge. Other times that knowledge is the fuel for some restless ambition.

Do you bring the same kind of work ethic to whatever you do in your dayjobs?

Speaking for myself, I do. I’m a tattooist by trade, and I work very hard at that. Steve is the hardest working guy I’ve ever met. He approaches every task with integrity and a strong work ethic. I feel like I’m probably the only guy in the band that currently has a job that he loves to do, but hopefully that changes. All of us attack the things we love with passion and some sense of pride.

I need to ask: what’s with the toys? ‘Dog Years’ had the demented Muppet, and ‘Goodbye Audio’ has what look to be a squadron of mutated He-Man figures on the cover. What the hell is going on? It’s like my childhood toy box having a glue fume-infused fever dream…

Well, that’s a great description. I like to make my own toys, mostly from pieces of old toys or other random objects. I like that there’s a sort of handmade feel to the covers for ‘Dog Years’ and ‘Goodbye Audio’. Some record covers I love had that as well, like some of those Primus album covers from the 90s, for example. I like to collect custom made toys and other weird stuff so it felt like a natural progression to build a diorama type of scenario for the album cover. I didn’t want to repeat myself with the puppet thing, and I wanted to make something visually striking, and maybe a bit out of the ordinary.

Do the creatures you fashion for the band have anything to do with what you do to pay the bills?

I have made some small run editions of custom made toys that I sold for a little extra money but it’s not my main source of income. I do plan to start making toys from scratch and casting/molding them so I can make larger editions of things that that’s a goal for 2019 for me.

Whether it’s the album art, the videos or the music itself, there’s usually a strange and warped sense of fun about The Great Sabatini. What feeds this playful side to the band, and how does it reflect n you as individuals?

I guess our sense of humour bleeds into what we do. We take it seriously and don’t want to come off as a ‘joke band’ but we are profoundly silly people in general. That is going to make its way into the music at some point if we’re being honest about the art of it. I also feel like that sort of thing has to be carefully placed in the context of the band and our music. We’re trying to strike a balance of feels and moods with this, and finding the right time and place to put something ‘fun’ is important.

I always think injecting a sense of fun or kookiness is a dangerous thing for a band: go too far and you invite dread words like ‘goofy’ or ‘wacky’ or ‘zany’. The Great Sabatini manages to keep things on track, but is this something you’re ever conscious of? Are there ever points where you think “nah, we’re going too far here…”?

I guess the last part of my previous answer sorta addresses this. Yeah, there are times when we discuss together what may or may not work for album art or a shirt design or some other visual element to the band, if it may be putting out a weird image or something. We’re very conscious of that sort of thing but the guys also trust me to a large extent to be the steward of that outside perception, because I write the words and do most of the art and design myself.

Canada belches out great music like it can’t help itself. How are you perceived/received in Montreal, and where would you say you fit into the country’s musical landscape?

We have a small niche audience in Montreal. That town is spoiled for choice in the arts. We fit only because of some stubborn refusal to go away. We’ve never for neatly into any genre or scene, so not many folks can latch onto us if they’re very genre-focused. But the folks who are into our band are INTO our band. I suppose at the end of the day if rather have those folks following our work than a high pile of fairweather fans or something. This seems to apply throughout the country. It’s hard to feel like we fit anywhere, but that usually makes for a more interesting experience at shows and with the people who find our music one way or the other.

What kind of local bands did you guys cut your teeth seeing when you were just getting into music? Did you ever see any of those old Great American Steak Religion or Spectra Sonic Sound bands?

That wasn’t really our cup of tea back then but as I said, Montreal being a town where we’re spoiled with choices there was never a lack of underground stuff to dig in to. And the third of us who are from here (Rob and Joe and I) were into different corners of the music scene when we were younger. I remember seeing the Expectorated Sequence in the early years and the Discord Of A Forgotten Sketch and being really into that spazzy hardcore/noisy thing. Those were interesting bands to me in town when I was starting to get into local underground music but we also all had friends in the death metal scene as well. Neuraxis comes to mind. Ion Dissonance. Joey just mentioned a band called Ire. His description of them is really piquing my interest, actually (sludgy metallic hardcore). Signed By Force had a cool thing going for a while and I was a fan of most of the bands on that label, like Trigger Effect, the Nymphets, Bionic.

What’s the weirdest thing to happen to you as a band?

The first thing that comes to mind was a time on our first tour when we stopped in Vancouver. We were staying with an old friend of mine and, after a few drinks, wound up hiking out to the woods and digging up the skull of her beloved cat Toulou. It’s hard not to be met with weird stares whenever I tell someone about that but it was a pretty poignant, though profoundly strange, moment we all shared together.

What’s next for The Great Sabatini? What are your immediate plans, and is there anything you’d like to do or accomplish that you haven’t yet been able to?

We are just finishing up the second weekend of gigs with our pals Cellos (from Windsor). It’s much harder to get out and do shows the way we used to, but we’re gonna try to get out and play some more next year. It’d be cool to get out and do some festival-type gigs which was never something we did very much of, but maybe that’s what makes more sense for a band that can’t get out to play as much as we used to, but we’re still trying to build something with our recorded output. We also had an idea for a film score project but that is maybe something we can try during the cold months this year.

More extremes in all directions: an interview with Brainoil

Brainoil are a long-running band from Oakland who bring together sludge, crust and filth-slicked metal like few others. ‘Singularity To Extinction’ is their third full-length in something like 20 years, and it’s also their mightiest release to date.

This interview was conducted by email with Greg Wilkinson (bass/vocals), Nate Harris (guitar) and Ira Smith (drums) as they readied themselves for a nine-date Japanese tour.

Listen to the new record while you read the words.

Okay, so let’s start off with a history lesson: how, when and why did Brainoil get together? What was the original impetus, and what did you hope to achieve with the band?

Greg: I started the band under the moniker ‘Mrbrainoil’ with the intention of creating a noisy sludge style band wrung through a punk filter. A few shows and some rare comp tracks occurred in this phase. This was over the period of ‘98/‘99. The intention of expanding the project into a full band was always the point once I was able to find likeminded people. Nate, who I was in a very short lived crust band with, first joined up later in ‘99. Shortly after, word got out that Grimple was throwing in the towel and Ira was looking for a new project. We snagged him fast. We were up and running in ‘00 with a demo tape as “Brainoil” and playing shows / recording our first two split releases in ‘01 as a three-piece.

Nate: I met Greg in 1997 through Ty, the drummer of a short-lived Oakland Swedish-style D-beat band called Squalor. That project dissolved after a couple years, and meanwhile Greg had started solo jamming on new ideas that blended heavy music with more rock and roll. I had always played and written guitar parts for punk and crust bands but never anything with a bit more rock ‘n’ roll influence and I was into the idea. We combined forces, writing songs with a drum machine at first and then became a full band with Ira on drums by late 2000. We continued on that thread to this day, making heavy music with no preconceived genre constraints, just concentrating on writing songs with interesting riffs and less-than-typical time signatures and song arrangements.

Ira: I joined the band after a mutual friend told me that Greg and Nate were looking for a drummer for a project. I was considering selling my drums at the time, but after listening to their drum machine demo and playing through the songs I realized that Brainoil was exactly what I was looking for.

What can you tell us about ‘Singularity To Extinction’? What went into the record and made it the way it is?

Greg: It’s difficult to say honestly considering we spent a seven-year course writing it. We trashed a few songs early on once we discovered the sound we wanted. We made a concerted effort to blend the first two LPs while adding more extremes in all directions, including tempo, genre, production, and vocal styles.

Nate: Singularity to Extinction is wider in scope and more polarized. The fastest and the slowest Brainoil material is on this record. There is a little bit more old school 1989 death metal and crust influence, but it is not a death metal or crust record. Singularity to Extinction as a recording is also a showcase for some of the best studio engineering work we’ve had to date, thanks in large part to the evolution of Greg’s recording skills at Earhammer. I dumped a lot of resources into getting exactly what I want out of guitar tone over the history of the band and this is the first release where we really nailed the guitar tone.

Ira: Lots of practice, arranging, rearranging, re-rearranging…

Did you face any particular challenges or issues when it came to writing or recording the new album?

Greg: Not really. Everyone in the band has a very specific style and contribution to our sound. Brainoil sounds like Brainoil because of the combination of musicians and songwriters. There is a specific swagger our songs tend to have no matter how far we try to push the limits. If you ask me, it’s quite favourable when considering a discography. It allowed us to expand our sound and production quite a bit without sounding like a different band.

Nate: The opposite of challenges and issues, for the first time we were able to take our time and record it exactly how we wanted to. For example, on tracking day we had more time to record multiple takes of a few of the tracks to get the tempo just how we wanted it to be, or rearrange microphones, drum heads or switch out pieces of the kit as we started tracking to get the best drum tones possible out of everything we had to work with. The same for guitar tone, bass tone and so on. Leading up to the official recording we also did scratch recordings every rehearsal for three months on my 18-year-old 16-bit digital 8 track – the same device we did our original demo with. Having those reference recordings really helped in completing vocals, fills and fine-tuning song arrangements. In short, we took more time beforehand to go into the session well-rehearsed and more time in the studio to document it exactly how we wanted to.

How have the seven years between ‘Death Of This Dry Season’ and the new LP affected or altered the band?

Greg: I don’t think it has considering the gap between the s/t and ‘Death Of This Dry Season’ was also seven years. The only thing I can think of is it gave us time to expand our songs with more craft while juggling a lot of responsibilities in our personal lives.

Nate: Seven years is the average span between all of our LPs, so the total perceived difference between the s/t and ‘Death of This Dry Season’ is probably equal to the difference between that album and ‘Singularity To Extinction’. There is change in each case, but the core Brainoil sound is still there. I think the next LP will be a similar rate of change but maybe not seven years from now until we get there. So by deduction, does that mean the next record will sound closer to this last LP? We’ll see.

Ira: Over the last seven years, I have been listening to more death metal, thrash and lots of punk. I think those influences come through on the new album.

To me the crust influences have been brought even more to the fore with this album. Was this a conscious move, or just how the songs evolved?

Greg: Both. Brainoil is its own living organism. It does what it wants. We are just along for the ride.

Nate: Not a conscious move, it happened naturally while writing songs for ‘Singularity To Extinction’. If you think of crust as punks playing slightly-sloppy, less-technical death metal, that is not a thought we will reject! We had a few different threads going in writing stuff for this release and some worked better than others across multiple songs to make a cohesive LP. Some of those other ideas were completed songs that we worked on over weeks or months, but ultimately shelved for now. I played crust and death metal influenced stuff with Destroy back in 1992 and then again with Stormcrow in the mid-2000s, to have a little bit of that style again with Brainoil is a welcome return. For me personally it is things coming full circle, and an opportunity to expand on and enjoy again playing a little bit more of a style that was the beginning of playing live music for me.

Ira: For me it kind of just naturally happened that way.

What do you think it is that makes crust and doom such comfortable bedfellows? The tone? The riffs? The general sense of dirt and desperation?

Greg: Not sure. We all listen to many forms of music and many sub factions of that. If you break riffs, production, gear, vocal styles and song treatment down to an unplugged guitar, you will notice these are no more than an outfit for the song. For example, I feel like you could have Bolt Thrower and Asunder play an identical riff and it would still in the end sound just like the respective band performing it cause of how each band treats the riff, tones, tempo etc. That being said, both genres do have a gnarly vibe and underground cult energy that do sleep well together.

Nate: There’s a natural tension/release between both crust and doom and when the two styles are mixed on the same LP it accentuates that tension further. I really enjoyed blending different guitar and bass tones to highlight the differences in some cases and meld them together in others. And that range of tones is something you will hear us recreate live with multiple guitar and bass amps. To your last point, yeah I will say there’s probably more than an ounce of dirt and desperation and frustration as part of the equation too.

Ira: Crust and Doom are complementary styles. Adding the right tones and riffs makes it complete.

In the time you’ve been together, both doom and crust have gone from being total outlier genres to (slightly!) more above-ground ones. Has it been weird seeing the terrain change like this, and has it had an impact on what you do with Brainoil?

Greg: Not really on either realm. The underground scene in regards to whether you discuss music, art, beer, film, literature, etc. will always become popular once it’s discovered and used by major label bands. The internet just makes all this become easier and work at a faster pace than before. As far as impact with Brainoil, I would say none. Stick around for 20 years and you get a lot of time to process things.

Nate: It is enjoyable in some sense to watch the styles change and for more people to get into it but I don’t personally read too much into it and I don’t think the band does either. I don’t think they will ever be fully above-ground genres and that’s fine.

It seems like Brainoil always makes us wait a good ol’ while between releases. Why the lag, and what is it that tends to bring you folks back together to make music?

Greg: In reality we practiced almost every week in between these two albums. It’s just we want a discography that is balanced. Not more of the same, but still keeping a consistent statement “this is Brainoil.”

Nate: Even when you don’t see a new release from us we have not been silent. We continue to play local shows, work on new material or just experiment with ideas. We won’t force something just to get a release out.

Ira: We continually practice and play local shows. We also set aside time for writing where we don’t play out as much. I can’t really explain the lag other than “time flies”!

You all have various other projects on the go, so what sort of itch does Brainoil scratch that your other bands/outlets might not?

Greg: The combo. I write very similar riffs across the board. Although, not super fast stuff for the most part in Brainoil. But every band will translate them so different. If you reference Deathgrave, for example, we don’t sound like Brainoil cause it’s a different filter. I alluded to this earlier how music gear and delivery is just an outfit. This is a strong example of that. No other band would sound like Brainoil without these members.

Nate: Brainoil is it for me at the moment and I am OK with dumping my guitar playing energy into this band. Brainoil has its parameters but they are not fixed, for me there’s a lot of room to try new guitar riffs and parts without specific constraints. Someday maybe I will decide again that I need a different outlet but maybe if I did it would be something very different like playing drums again. For now I’m happy not to be juggling two or more different band schedules.

Ira: Brainoil is my only outlet nowadays, so it scratches all the itches.

Greg, the work you do outside the band at Earhammer must bring you into contact with stacks of hungry, gnarly young bands. Do you think your work as an engineer filters into what you do with Brainoil, either in a proactive (e.g. “we should do this…”) or preventative (“we definitely shouldn’t do this…”) way?

Greg: In a way to both. But not in a marketing “the kids are into this so let’s incorporate that” sense. I write and record my own music to help me understand and work through obstacles I encounter while working other bands sessions. It’s usually inspiration that brings me to this. Some of these ideas wind up in bands. Song writing is a conversation. So if I wonder how can I get this fast riff to cut through some bands production? I may try recording myself playing fast stuff. With that, I am able to think “Brainoil needs a fast part and this one would fit them” so I will bring it to practice and bounce it off them. Oakland has a lot of inspiring musicians, bands and people in the scene which really keeps me writing frequently (obviously not only for Brainoil since we do take our time between albums).

Both crust and doom tend towards a negative, nihilistic world view, and it has to be said that records like ‘Singularity To Extinction’ serve as an effective soundtrack for what is a screwed-up and terrifying moment in human history. Do you think there’s any scope for hope right now, and what are the things that get you through the day as a band?

Greg: Although there are many great humans out there, the human race as a whole always resorts to greed and power. Right now it looks bleak as racism, sexism, homophobia, classism, nationalism, etc. are becoming more acceptable in this country (and world). But I really can’t predict. Escape through the underground community, culture, arts, and beloved friends deliver a temporary reprieve from the harsh reality. My practice spaces, studio and wife are my sanctuary.

Nate: The insanity will inevitably continue in one form or another, a comment not to be confused with hope or fatalism. And a troubling majority of people will continue to be complicit with the status quo, no matter what type of lies, discrimination and abuse becomes normalized. Any frustration and anger in the music for me is not coming from a place where it is a binary question of one person on the outside looking in and pointing the finger at others with simple answers. We are all in the middle of it and all complicit on one level or another. That anger or frustration becomes its own creative outlet, for me that’s playing and listening to heavy music and brewing and drinking beer and I’m lucky enough to be privileged enough to indulge my creative energy in those, at least for now. So if Brainoil connects with people as some noisy product of that greater dysfunction, awesome. I have no illusions about that though either.

What are your immediate plans for Brainoil, and is there anything you’d ultimately like to achieve with the band?

Greg: On a plane to tour Japan at the moment. That’s the most immediate. It’s hard to predict what will come after that. Guessing would only put the cart before the horse. At minimum, it would be great to play some west coast dates next year.

Nate: There is no specific push for lame growth metrics or some achievement goal schedule. Brainoil will continue on a path where there is room for us to do even more with the foundation we have, but on our terms. That might mean a tour here and there in places we’ve never been before, or it may mean working on a new release sooner than later. First and foremost, Brainoil has to be true to itself without being fixated on a specific strategy. This is not a business for us. Unfortunately, surrounding us obsessive, competitive strategy has become a way of life for many everyday people in the SF Bay Area, that complicates things for us to do as much Brainoil as we want to do. Thanks for this interview as it helps people know we are still alive and kicking.

Ira: We are on our way to Japan for a nine-show tour with Black Ganion. This has been a life goal for me and I’m glad I can share that experience with two of the best bandmates one could have.

Pushing the punishment: an interview with WarHorse

WarHorse was a crushing, psych-addled doom band who released a handful of singles and, in 2001, an album entitled ‘As Heaven Turns To Ash…’. Southern Lord reissued it earlier this year, and bassist Jerry Orne, drummer Mike Hubbard and guitarist Todd Laskowski were decent enough to answer some of my questions.

Ok. Can you start off with the simple stuff for us: how, when, where and why did WarHorse get started?

Jerry: WarHorse started in 1996. Desolate (the death metal band I was in) had broken up and I was looking to start something new. I knew Krista VanGuilder and Mike Hubbard from their old bands.

Mike: The band was already being formed by the time Jerry called me up. I was between bands at the time. My old band Infestation has recently ended, so the timing was good for me. We didn’t really discuss a direction or anything, he just asked if I was interested in coming down to jam and I said yes.

What was the initial idea behind the band? Did you know how you wanted things to sound when you started out?

Jerry: We were all looking to do something heavy and crusty, but still pretty melodic.

Mike: Like I said, the band was already being formed by the time I showed up, so I can’t speak to the origins. But I know we wanted to do something heavy, something different, so we just sort of followed that path.

I think (?) some of you played in death metal bands in the early 90s. I’ve always been drawn to bands with that deathly sound to them, but it seemed for quite a while that people didn’t make the connection between doom and death metal. How did you see the two genres intersecting and cross-pollinating? Was playing slower stuff a ‘reaction’ to the speed of death metal, or was it some sort of logical extension?

Mike: Yeah, the early 90s was a good time for death metal. There were a few of us bands doing different takes on different styles at the time. I was drawn to bands like Entombed, Grave, Incantation, Autopsy which all had some elements of doom and slower parts. But I also liked fast stuff like Carcass, Napalm Death, Brutal Truth. But when I discovered bands like Cathedral, Eyehategod, the Melvins, I was hooked. For me, I felt like the slow to mid-pace vibe allowed for more punishment. You could hit a lot harder, and each beat felt massive.

Jerry: I think we just put our influences together: Sabbath, Sleep, Crowbar, Melvins, Autopsy, Buzzoven, Cathedral, etc.

Todd: Well, the guys in WarHorse were always into bands like Winter, Autopsy and Cathedral, so mixing in a little Sleep and EyeHateGod in just sort of came naturally. I mean it’s all extreme music and that’s what we all like. It was just an easy progression if you will.

Who did you view as your peers / comrades / competitors? Was there any sense that there was a ‘scene’, or were there just isolated pockets of slow-motion heaviness?

Jerry: We never really tried to figure out what we were. We played with metal bands, rock bands, punk and hardcore. Reactions were generally negative, really. Fine with me.

Mike: This was very early in the “stoner rock” thing, but I remember getting some of the first stuff from Electric Wizard and being completely blown away. Grief was another local band putting out slow, brutal stuff, but we never crossed paths. I think we would have been a good fit.

Todd: Ha ha, I’d say “isolated pockets” is a good way to put it. It all just kind of came to the surface. The influences just boiled up. It wasn’t a competition thing, but the bands I mentioned were definitely peers in our eyes.

Many of the US bands from that era I’d associate with more punk/hardcore-related labels and scenes (e.g. Noothgrush, Floor, Cavity and Grief being on labels like Bovine and Slap-A-Ham and/or playing fests like Fiesta Grande…) but I kinda think that WarHorse were very much a METAL band. Is this interpretation correct, and was there any crossover?

Mike: We were all into punk, hardcore, etc but metal was definitely the main thing we were going for. But we also had a lot of love for the early heavy stuff, 70s rock and heavy metal, 60s psychedelia. All of that started finding spots in our songs.

Todd – Yes, we love bands like Grief, Disrupt, Converge and Neurosis. We also all listened to a lot of D.R.I, Madball and Sick Of It All, but WarHorse is definitely mostly influenced by METAL!

What kind of bands did you play with? They were a bit earlier than you guys, obviously, but I remember talking to Stephen from Winter and him saying they were hated almost universally, whether they played with punk bands (with whom they shared certain ideologies) or bigger metal bands like Sepultura…

Mike: We played with a lot of that mid-90s alternative rock/metal that was all around us, and we were usually hated when we played with them. We’ve had the power shut off on us more than once. We opened for Godsmack when they were on the rise and people were visibly angry. Once we got into Boston, we had a little bit of a better reception. Fans there were much more tolerant.

Todd – We played with everyone from Bongzilla to Goatsnake to the heaviest death metal bands. We had a death metal background, so we pretty much fit in with everyone we played with but it was mostly doom-oriented bands that we did shows with (Evoken, Unearthly Trance etc.) or death metal bands that already knew us personally (Cryptopsy and the likes of them). We also played the first ‘Stoner Hands of Doom’ fest, which reunited Pentagram and Trouble.

Am I right in thinking you had a female vocalist when you first started out? Can you tell us about those early days, and what led to the change?

Jerry: Yes, Krista VanGuilder was first on vocals and guitar. Great player and singer. We did our first cassette, then CD with her. I’m not really sure exactly why she quit. She was in college. We still all get along great now.

Mike: Yeah, Krista was the original guitarist/vocalist when I joined the band. Those days were fun. We had some good songs I think, and at the time, heavy bands fronted by women weren’t that common. It made us stand out. Unfortunately she decided to leave the band to pursue college, which is fine. There was no animosity, and things worked out for everyone.

How would you say WarHorse grew and developed over the course of its existence? How would you characterise the changes – be they physical, sonic or personal – that the band underwent from release to release?

Jerry: We just kept pushing the punishment, getting heavier every step of the way.

Mike: With each incarnation of the band, we got heavier and more psychedelic, more nasty. After Krista, we played with Matt Smith for a while, did the ‘Lysergic’ 7″ and the ‘Priestess’ EP with him. He brought a lot of the experimental/noise elements into the mix. But that didn’t work out and it was just Jerry and I. At that point, Jerry decided he would take over vocals so that if we kept changing out guitar players at least the vocals would be consistent. I supported this decision. Never hurts to have a Lemmy worshipper as your frontman.

Todd: Well I lost 50 pounds between the USA tour and the European tour. But, other than that we definitely grew as a band. We became sonically tight. And, grew to know each others’ moves. I didn’t know how to play lead guitar when I joined. I was a rhythm guitarist. I learned to play lead really fast – just in time to record.

How would you describe a typical WarHorse gig, practise or recording session?

Jerry: Loud and loose.

Mike: Early gigs were pretty random. It took us a while to break into playing clubs, and like I said, we usually went over pretty badly. We were loud, tuned down, slow, with long songs. Everything people tend to hate in a live band. But we kept at it. Practices were usually pretty productive. We never had a proper rehearsal space, we always played in basements. We started out in Krista’s mom’s basement, then moved to Jerry’s. It was cramped and loud. Full stacks and no ear plugs. We played as often as we could, usually twice or three times a week. Didn’t have too many recording sessions. Basement tapes, a couple sessions with Bill T. Miller, and then the ‘Heaven Turns To Ash’ and ‘I Am Dying’ sessions at New Alliance. Everything we did was quick, usually in a day. Not a lot of takes, all live, then threw on overdubbed guitars and vocals. The AHTTA session was the most pro session we did, and we did that over three or four days.

Todd – Lots of weed and drinks. Just energy and lots of volume. In the beginning it was just serious power and fury! At the end it was a lot of tension at rehearsal, but the shows were always killer!

I think I read somewhere that Grief’s Terry Savastano was somehow involved in the band. Is this right?

Jerry: Yeah, after the last time we split up, Terry and I started writing songs for a new band. I called Mike and asked him to play drums. After a couple of practices, we decided to continue WarHorse. We did a few shows, but broke up after a few months.

Mike: Yes, this is true. It was months after we had called it quits after our European tour with Electric Wizard. Jerry and Terry started jamming on some new ideas for a new band, went looking for a drummer and Jerry called me again. The new ideas were heavy, and close to the WarHorse stuff, so we talked it over and decided we could reform the band with Terry, play some of the old songs and start working on new songs. Made sense to start with an established name. But, sadly, that didn’t work out either and we finally called it quits for good.

Todd: Terry was in a version of the band after we had broken up the last time, after I didn’t come back. It didn’t last long.

Beyond the sheer heaviness of the records, I always liked the more frazzled, psychedelic elements at play – they added another layer, and one that added to the unsettling vibe running through things. Where did this come from?

Jerry: Mostly from the bands we like, Hendrix, Allman Brothers, Skynard, Mountain, plus the psychedelic shit from the 60s and 70s.

Mike: This came from our love of 60s bands like Hendrix, Pink Floyd, etc. It seemed to create a lot of tension, but also some serene moments that helped set up the crushing parts.

Todd: Well I didn’t know how to play leads well, so I added a lot of effects (flanger, delay and fuzz). I would experiment with solos and it became natural to sound trippy. Eventually, it became ‘the sound’. But we were also into Hendrix and lots of 60s stuff and we also started out to intentionally have a psychedelic sound. I mean, we have a song called ‘Lysergic Communion’. It’s our roots – I grew up on my mom and dad’s Doors and MC5 records.

What would you say influenced WarHorse beyond music?

Jerry: Anger, Frustration, Stubborness, Hate…

Mike: Music was the main thing. We just wanted to make the heaviest stuff we could manage.

Todd: DRUGS! And Drugs! But, also just wanting to sound cool and trippy, you know?

How did you hook up with Ellington for the ‘Priestess’ 12”? To me, at the time, they seemed very much into the whole crazy, technical hardcore thing, what with releases by Barritt, Converge and Shadow’s Fall. I guess Ire were a bit slower and sludgier, but WarHorse kinda stuck out like a sore thumb…

Jerry: Yeah, that didn’t work out like we wanted.

Todd: Well, that was before my time. But, I know the guys were friends with the Ellington guys, and they dug WarHorse. I love the Priestess 12” but hate playing the song. I dunno why.

Mike: Mike Mannix was a local guy that we knew from the early death metal days. So he knew what we were all about individually, and was following the band. When he approached us to do the record, we didn’t think at all about what else he was putting out. We were just stoked that someone wanted to put our stuff out. That record came out great, and I still have people tell me how much they like it.

What was the motivation behind the Wargasm cover? I picked that album up in a charity shop many moons ago, and there always seemed to be something a bit weird about it…

Jerry: We recorded songs for a split, but no one would do one with us. Then we wanted to do a 10” but the songs were too long. The Wargasm cover was for a thrash comp, but it never came out. Ellington did the best they could; the red vinyl rules and the cover kicks ass but it’s just kind of a shit show. The Wargasm cover was done out of respect, and Mike is a big fan. I heard Wargasm hated it.

Mike: There was some talk of a possible thrash tribute compilation, and Wargasm was the biggest band around here for thrash. They were huge. For me, they were as big as Metallica or Slayer. We had the idea to do a slow version of that tune because we felt it fit with our vibe and the vibe of the original song. It was our attempt at a tribute to the band.

Todd: That was before my time as well. I played on ‘As Heaven Turns to Ash…’  and the ‘I Am Dying’ 7”. I ran into the drummer from Wargasm, Barry Spillburg, and he told me he hated the cover. I let him know I didn’t give a shit. He was a dick to me, straight up. And I loved Wargasm when I was a kid. I used to go see them play every week in Providence RI when I was like 16. It was my first realization that your idols can be shit. It’s ironic that Mike (drums) now plays in a band now that Barry was in.

What’s the story behind your relationship with Southern Lord? Who discovered/reached out to who?

Mike: I was following the label, and I liked their aesthetic and those first few releases like Thors Hammer, Goatsnake, etc were so heavy and good. I had sent Greg some demos and he was kinda lukewarm, but said he wanted to hear more. So we did some more demos, and he was a little more interested. As luck would have it, he was coming out to the East Coast to a show in NJ that we were playing, so he got to see us live. I won’t say we got “signed on the spot” at the show, but it wasn’t too long after that Greg asked us to maybe do a record for him.

What can you tell us about the writing and recording of ‘As Heaven Turns To Ash…’? What kind of themes/ideas were running through the record, and what kind of headspace were you in while you were putting it together?

Mike: By the time we went to record, we had been playing those songs for a while, so there wasn’t much to work out. We knew we wanted to create some cool intros and outros, some quiet parts to break up all the heavy stuff. Todd was the one to come up with the idea that it should be a ‘concept’ album, with the theme running through it. All the quiet stuff, like ‘Amber Vial’, was put together pretty quickly, in the studio, based on some ideas we had floating around. It all seemed to work out.

Todd: Well the record was complete when we went into the studio. We just worked out a couple of the instrumentals. But it was a great headspace. Andre Schneider was great to work with. He gave us a lot of space and he liked the music, so it went smoothly. It was a great time – the best recording experience of my life, and I’ve recorded at least six or seven releases.

Did you set out to do anything differently with the full-length, given that you’re previously only put our shorter releases?

Todd: We just ripped out the songs that we could tell were working when we played them live and we just had a good time doing it. It all just fell into place.

Mike: I think we just wanted to document all the material we had, and make a cohesive, heavy record.

Jerry: Well by then Todd was in the band, and we were all on the same page as far as pushing things as far as possible.

How do you view ‘As Heaven Turns To Ash…’ now, looking back on it? Do you think of it as any kind of landmark? 

Jerry: It’s definitely the best thing we did. And recording at New Alliance with Andrew Schneider was great. It really raised our profile enough that we got to tour the US, Europe and the UK. We got to meet and play with many bands we respected. It was pretty cool.

Mike: I’m very proud of that record. At the time, we just wanted to do something heavy. I never expected it be included in the same breaths as records by Sleep, Cathedral, etc, that it was later on. The fact that it’s still talked about enough to warrant the reissue it pretty crazy to me.

Todd: I love the record. It sounds great, and our contemporaries have really praised our shit, so… As far as a landmark? I mean it has its place in time and, it went over well. It’s not my place to say.

The album came out at a time when doom was just starting to peep above the parapet: it had been a minority concern for years, but with the internet and bands like Sunn O))) etc. raising its profile. Were you aware of this at all at the time? Did you notice things shifting around you?

Todd: Yeah, it came out at a time when doom was beginning to blossom so it was probably perfectly timed. I mean Anderson and O’Malley are no fools. I think they saw a bright light and went for it.

Mike: I just noticed that our shows were getting bigger and better, and we were playing with bands we were into. It was pretty great.

To this day, some my friends and I are seriously pissed that we didn’t get to see you when you played over here with Electric Wizard and didn’t even know it was happening. How was the experience for you, and how did you find the UK?

Todd – The UK was the time of my life. I turned 30 in London. I can’t say enough about the hospitality we received in the UK and all of Europe. I’m sorry you missed it. I would have loved to have seen those shows myself. I really wanna record and tour something again that can come close to the Electric Wizard/WarHorse tours. DOOM/STONER heaven man!!!

Jerry: Yeah, the tour was a trip for sure! I’ve always been into British motorcycles, Monty Python, The Young Ones, plus all the great bands, so the UK was a high point for me. Great people, great shows. The warm beer took some getting used to though…

Mike: Both tours with Wizard were pretty intense. The US tour was the first major tour we had done. Until then, it was nothing but one-offs and long weekend things. We learned a lot on those tours. I wouldn’t trade them for anything.

What led to WarHorse’s dissolution? Where do you think the band would have gone if you’d not broken up?

Jerry: We were getting along less and less, by the end we were just fighting all the time. It really started to suck, so that was it.

Mike: I think we just ran out of steam and it seemed like the right thing to do. I think we all needed a break. It was a tumultuous run.

Todd: It was just personality issues. I know that’s cheesy, but it’s true. We’ve all played together since. Nothing important. But, we jam well. It would have been big if we could have kept it together. But, it wasn’t in the cards at that time. Now? Who knows? It would’ve definitely been something great if we stayed together. I know. I have the material written, still.

What did you all go on to do after the band?

Jerry: I didn’t do much for years, but then Desolate reformed, and I’m also in a new band called Conclave.

Todd: Started a band called Sin Of Angels. Wrote one album with them. Never recorded. But, they put out an album with another guitarist called ‘Eucharist’ that I wrote. I’m definitely proud of that music but it wasn’t my cup of tea. They still play today. So…. It’s a business. This music world. And, if you can’t make your mark, you may as well keep on moving.

Mike: I took a break from playing for a couple of years, then starting kicking around in some small bands with friends. Nothing too serious. I did a rock band for a couple years called Cheap Leather, and after that I ended up getting the Gozu gig, which has been awesome.

What did your time in WarHorse teach or inspire in you? What have you ultimately taken away from the experience?

Todd: WarHorse was the shit, man. I took a lot away. It taught me a bit about the biz. Like I said. I love the recordings we did and I’m proud of them.

Jerry: It was great because of the things we got to do, the people we met. I still hear from people, sharing what WarHorse meant to them.

An interview with Lions Of Tsavo

Despite the band being around for a while, ‘Traverser’ was the first album I heard from Lions Of Tsavo and it fair near exploded my skull. The band play a crushing mix of metal that offers up blackened shrieks, momentous sludge-outs, math-rock dynamics, progressive tendencies and a canny knack for seamlessly weaving all this disparate stuff together.  They are, to be frank, pretty ruddy impressive. Even though it took me ages to get my act together Ryan and Daine were good enough to answer some questions for the CZ…

Ok, so can we please start with the simple stuff: how, when, where and why did Lions Of Tsavo get started?

Ryan (vocals/guitar): Well, basically around 2003, Josh [Dawkins, drums], I and our original bass player Matt moved down to Austin, TX from Ohio to give Lions Of Tsavo a fresh start in a new city. I had been to Austin quite a few times by then, and thought it would be a great place to live and play music. We had all been in bands together previously, so we knew it could work, and I pretty much had the band name as well as the concept along with four or five songs written by that time to convince them. It took us about a year to get things rolling, but by 2005 we were recording our first record with Billy Anderson and playing shows pretty regularly. In 2008, Daine joined on bass while Matt switched to second guitar – that was around the time we recorded the ‘Swarm Of All Unholy’ EP, but that lineup only lasted about a year before Matt departed and we reverted back to a three piece again.

What was the initial plan for the band, and how do you think you’ve kept to (or strayed from) it?

Ryan: The initial concept tying into the band name itself was the idea of ‘nature versus humanity’, Mother Nature taking back and righting the wrongs of mankind’s tampering. We’re exploring the possible consequences of hundreds of years of environmental destruction caused by our hands, as well as pointing out the reality of already occurring events. We’ve kept that going as a common thread throughout our work, even as we grow and try new things musically and lyrically.

How would you say the band has grown and developed over time?

Ryan: I think mainly we have grown in our attention to detail/composition and the ability to execute our ideas better, especially when looking back at the almost blind fury and unchecked rage of our early material. ‘Traverser’ was a huge leap forward for us, as far as having a defined storyline/theme for the record, as well as the amount of time spent hammering out the song structures and the way everything flowed together.  Basically I see ‘Tsaunamicron’ as the record of a young band trying to find its feet and identity, ‘Firelung’ as the next logical step showcasing both the path forward as well as some dead ends, the ‘Swarm Of All The Unholy’ EP as an experiment in adding more progressive elements and seeing how much ‘heavier’ we could get, and ‘Traverser’ as the culmination of everything taken to a new dynamic level.

Daine (bass):  When I moved to Austin in 2007, ‘Tsunamicron’ was the only recording at that time, and I thought it was a very fresh take on heavy music. It was pummeling, but it wasn’t boring in that typical ‘metal band’ kind of way.  The writing was strong; you could hear some different influences but it was unique – that’s what personally drew me to the band, and I’d like to think we have continued building on those ideas.

What can you tell us about ‘Traverser’? What went into it and led it to be the way it is? Are there any specific themes or ideas running through the record?

Ryan: Long story short, the whole concept for the first half of the album is Mother Nature wiping the earth clean through various plagues and natural disasters save for one individual referred to as the “Traverser”. They are then reborn at the point where life began and forced to walk across the earthen landscapes, whilst seeing the horrors of humanity through the eyes of every creature in existence.  It is also kind of an ongoing story that I don’t necessarily see ending with these particular songs. I guess we embraced our inner prog leanings with this one, but the whole concept was a great inspiration to us finishing the songs and giving them purpose.

Daine:  The writing process for this record took a couple of years to complete, which helped to give diversity to the songs.  We were able to take time to grow as a band, and in turn to craft the best possible compositions while following a certain concept.  ‘Chemotrophs’ and ‘Sea Of Crises’ were the first to emerge, and then ‘Bestial Heavens’, which were all steps in different directions.  I think we all had the same idea, but wanted to experiment in how to convey the central storyline while still challenging ourselves in how we write music together.

To me, it’s a very ‘complete’ album: it’s not something you can necessarily dip into – you have to experience it as a whole piece of work. Was it conceived and written as such, or is this just a happy accident?

Ryan: It was very much conceived as such, and I intentionally sequenced the songs in a way that made the entire album flow together as a journey…something you had to experience as a whole rather than just a collection of individual moments. We also had the song order for the album pretty much set before recording even commenced, rehearsing the material in different combinations until we thought it worked best. We thought of the record being in two distinct halves, and that is actually how we ended up recording it.

Daine:  I hesitate to use the term ‘concept album’, but that’s basically what it is.  Every song progresses the storyline to its ultimate conclusion.  The idea was that on vinyl, the A side and B side would be quite different.

It also seems incredibly taut and well-regimented. Are these songs mapped out carefully and precisely, or is the process looser and more organic than that?

Ryan: A little of both. We spent a lot of time working on every aspect of every song, but a few of them came about pretty organically, through the process of improvising and exploring things that just ‘happened’ at rehearsals. Everybody put their input into the process as we structured the songs, and we were all very happy with the outcome as a result.

It’s obviously been a while since the album came out, so what have you been up to since then?

Ryan: We did some touring throughout 2014 as well as steadily playing shows in and around Austin, TX. We’ve also been working on new song ideas since ‘Traverser’ was finished.

Are you working on new material already? If so, how would you say it compares to the ‘Traverser’ stuff, and what did you learn from the writing/recording process?

Ryan: We are getting pretty deep into the writing process for the next record. So far everything is sounding massive and in many ways both more progressive and focused than ‘Traverser’. I personally see ‘Traverser’ as being shrouded in a melancholic and hazy atmosphere, and in a way I wanted to break out of that for the next one. Not just to have the songs be more ‘forceful’, but also to not repeat ourselves. The self-production on ‘Traverser’ was highly rewarding and beneficial towards making the album we wanted to make, but it was also very much a learning curve and certainly took its toll on my sanity in a way. At this point, I’m not sure whether we will be self-producing again or going into a studio and having someone else take control of the recording process, but I’m looking forward to getting it done regardless.

Daine:  We are always working on new things.  Even before ‘Traverser’ came out, we were already hammering out potential riffs for new songs.  We all love writing.  It’s my favorite part of playing music.

To me, the band lobs in a whole load of different influences from right across the metal spectrum. While there are plenty of bands doing this, Lions Of Tsavo do it in a way where it’s almost impossible to see where the joins are: there’s no sense that ‘this is the black metal bit’ and ‘this is the mathy bit’. Do you have to work hard to get the flow of things right, or is it an easy process and I’m just making too much of it?

Ryan: Honestly, we just write songs we want to hear. We don’t focus that much on incorporating too many obvious or direct influences into the material.  Sometimes the process is natural and sometimes it involves a lot of work to get to where we need the song to be. Also, there is a pretty wide range of influences between the three of us, so sometimes it might be that individually we are approaching certain parts from different angles, and that’s what makes it unique, hopefully.

Of all the genres you splice together, where would you say your hearts truly lie? 

Ryan: There are certainly common thread bands the three of us share, from the Melvins, Neurosis, Unsane, and Deathspell Omega to Pink Floyd, Rush, King Crimson and Black Sabbath, and even a lot of heavy 90s stuff like Kyuss, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, Ministry, Godflesh, Tool, etc. I personally tend to gravitate towards the old Dischord (especially Hoover and Lungfish), Touch & Go, Amphetamine Reptile, and Gravity Records type of bands I grew up listening to, as well as post-punk stuff like Killing Joke and The Cure, but things like Failure, God Machine and 16 Horsepower/Wovenhand go hand in hand with listening to Voivod, Today Is The Day and His Hero is Gone…so I’m pretty much all over the place.

Daine:  There’s something about the songwriting in newer black metal that is extremely interesting to me; it’s basically taking all the previous unsaid rules of writing metal and throwing them out the window.  The freedom that you have with song structure, time signatures, chord progressions – it draws a lot from prog and even jazz to some degree, and I really tend to gravitate towards that.  But obviously nothing is better than the first five Sabbath records.

I have to admit, it was seeing one of you wearing a Kerosene 454 t-shirt in a promo pic that piqued my interest in the band. This is lame, I know. Some e-research (aka cyber stalking) then led me to discover that at least one of you had been in Ambassador 990, a band I really like. What was the journey like from that band to this one? Were A990 closet metalheads or has the metamorphosis been a gradual one?

Ryan: Haha, no man, that’s not lame at all! I love Kerosene 454, and I’m always stoked to talk to somebody who even remembers them. As far as A990 goes, at least Mike and I were pretty into metal at the time, and the stuff we were writing for the second record (which sadly never happened) was sounding a lot more Karp-ish and heavy. After we broke up, I ended up exploring some more ‘spacy’ sounds in bands and solo works before going back to heavy music. Also, Mike ended up forming Early Man which was full on heavy metal, so there you go.

What did your time in a DIY punk band ‘teach’ you, and have you brought any of those experiences to bear on what you do with Lions Of Tsavo? How would you say tastes, behavior and audiences have changed over time and between genres?

Ryan: It certainly gave me a foundation in the DIY ethic, that’s for sure. Knowing that touring and getting your music exposed is rarely a ‘luxurious’ experience, but it’s also one that toughens you up and makes any gains you happen to achieve highly rewarding. I don’t make this kind of music expecting to be sitting on a pile of money anytime soon or anything, I know these songs are a tough sell to certain people… but to me that makes it all the more rewarding when somebody actually ‘gets it’ and has the music affect them in some way.

What’s Austin like as a place to play music in? It obviously has an awesome history (Dicks, The Big Boys, Scratch Acid, Cherubs…), a bunch of great new punk bands and also Chaos In Tejas, but at the same time it has the whole SXSW rigmarole blowing through it which I Imagine must have altered things quite a bit as it’s such a big deal these days…

Daine:  I wasn’t here in the early days of the Austin music scene; in fact, the area where I grew up was the complete polar opposite of Austin.  So the opportunities this city provides are sometimes overwhelming – which is fantastic for young and underground bands – but can come as a bit of a shock to those who have yet to experience this sort of saturation.   Most folks are definitely aware of the cultural and musical history here, and it’s not uncommon to run into some serious musical legends (David Yow, Roky Erickson, even Robert Plant) while walking down the street.  It’s a crucible though, for local bands.  Even if you’re good by most standards, you have to stand out above the crowd – most of which have come from all over the world to be in a place that holds music in such high regard.  Austin is a town where working hard isn’t enough – you have to have something that people haven’t seen before, and even that doesn’t always guarantee success.  And yeah, South By Southwest is insane.  I can’t even begin to describe it.

What have been the best, worst and weirdest things about being in Lions Of Tsavo?

Ryan: The best and weirdest things would have to be that this music we’ve created has reached people around the world and allowed us to travel and meet so many other awesome bands and individuals. The worst thing would maybe be that we’ve yet to find a home at a record label with which we can build a lasting relationship with, and that could get our music out into the world even more.

Daine:  Josh and Ryan are two of the most talented people I’ve ever had the pleasure of playing music with, which really makes being part of this band an incredible experience.  But when you play a style of music that isn’t easily defined or fit into some sort of predefined genre, you’re really at an automatic disadvantage.  Music in the 21st century is unlike it has ever been in the past; instruments are cheap and easily obtained, so being in a band is easy – but it’s extremely difficult to sell your songs and recoup the costs of the process.  So I’d say the worst thing is dealing with finances and trying to make enough money to be self-sustaining.  The weirdest would definitely be some of the DIY shows we’ve played on tour.  Very strange things happen in small towns.

What’s next for the band? What are your short-term goals and what, if anything, would you ultimately like to achieve?

Ryan: Next things are to get the songs completed for the next album, do some touring to road test them a bit, and then hopefully get them recorded before the year is out. I can only hope that each record we make is better than the last one, and that we can convert more and more people to our particular brand of noise.

Daine:  Oh man, I’d love to see ‘Traverser’ get the vinyl treatment.  I think the artwork would look incredible in the bigger format.  Ideally we’d like to do a bigger tour, and actually have a booking agent instead of booking everything ourselves!  That would be nice.  Oh, and a split release with our friends in Inter Arma.  We’ve talked about it and I’d love to see that happen.

http://lionsoftsavo.bandcamp.com/